Monday, November 07, 2016

This is How Trump Wins

The town of Fair Lawn is an uproar over a lawsuit filed by the ACLU (the A stands for American) against the town's school district over policies it says discriminate against children of undocumented immigrants.

According to the complaint, Fair Lawn school district policy requires that parents provide a driver's license and automobile registration when registering their child for enrollment in the district. The group called these requirements "an impermissible and discriminatory registration hurdle" for children of undocumented immigrants, because a person without a Social Security number or valid immigration status is unable to obtain such documentation.

I'm sure the majority of you reading this are die-hard Hillary Clinton supporters who despise Donald Trump and have written all Trump supporters off as racist and xenophobic. But it's issues like these that resonate with people.


Damino said...

I disagree with the premise of the ACLU lawsuit 100% and expect that a lot of Democrats feel similarly. I live in Larchmont which is exceptionally liberal, and suspect that the ACLU's position would not be a majority viewpoint at all here. So please don't stereotype us all in the same way that you're accusing us of stereotyping Trump voters.

And yes to be fair, I don't have a high opinion of Trump supporters, to put it mildly, but I'd emphasize that my viewpoint is shared by lots of prominent conservatives. I have a high opinion of Mitt Romney, for example, even if I voted against him at the ballot box and with my wallet. I think Trump has in his camp hordes of anti-semites, racists, nationalists, etc., and I hope he goes down in flames tonight. Bigly.

Paul said...

my stereotyping of anti-Trumpers wasn't about their feelings on this issue, or any issue really, it was about their opinion of Trump supporters.
Similar to what happened in Brexit when real issues were ignored in favor of simply calling those who disagreed "stupid" or "racist", similar things are happening where many Clinton supporters just can't seem to understand why anyone would vote for Trump, unless of course they're a racist Anti-Semite.

Also, I believe he is saying "big league" but not annunciating.

Damino said...

Well his poor annunciation will now be a part of at least the next 4 State of the Union addresses. FML.

I don't understand why Republicans always point fingers at Democrats and say that WE stereotype and WE can't understand why anyone would have the opposite perspective. Do you honestly think all the non-college educated men from rural areas can even begin to understand me, or Reissberg, or Focks, or Razor, etc.? I sure as hell don't.

I have a large group of cousins/aunts/uncles etc. who live in central NJ far from any major city, most of whom didn't go to college and have never been outside of the country except to go to some all inclusive resort in the Caribbean. I'm not going to call them ignorant or racist, but let's just say that they're the exact opposite of worldly and open-minded, and they cannot even come close to understanding why Mrs. Damino, Big Kev and I vote the way we vote and think the way we think. And although none of us is rich in any universe, they stereotype us as limousine liberals who engage in groupthink and have no clue about the real world, which is total b.s.

Anyway, the point is that this is very much a two way street, and it's not just liberals who have no clue why conservatives think the way they do, and it's not just liberals who stereotype conservatives. We live in a very polarized nation, whether we like it or not.

Reissberg said...

Not sure if anyone reads this except the 3 of us, but Damino is right on. If your comment was written before the election it was prescient.
This is the biggest issue I'm dealing with in the aftermath of last night. My values are pidgeon-holed, marginalized and assumed to be "out of touch" with "real America", whatever that means. You assume "we liberals" have blind loyalty to Hillary Clinton but you don't know why I supported her and never bothered to ask.
I get the appeal of Trump for working class people who feel like this country has abandoned them, I do. But this sure seems like a victory for working class whites at the expense of African-Americans, Muslims, Hispanics, Jews and those damn liberal elites. I'm tired of the division. If you don't like where this country has gone the last 8 years, tell me why. I may not agree, but I'll listen and maybe I'll understand. I never thought I'd say this, but to paraphrase Glen Beck, we (the Royal We) need to start listening to each other. Because I'm tired of this. I could go on and probably will in other forums, but that's all for now.
P.S.: Paul -- Sorry to direct this at you but you're a captive audience here. Not meaning to single you out in any way.

Paul said...

I know I've slacked recently, but saying no one reads it. Ouch!

Reissberg, I'm not even sure you read it. I only stereotyped liberals for stereotyping Trump voters. And I didn't say all, I said the majority.

Also, having known you for a while I think I do have at least a decent understanding of why you supported Hillary.

Damino, I would tend to agree with your comments but it's probably more insulting to be labeled a stupid racist than it is to be labeled a wealthy snob.

Damino said...


Yes I agree that I'd much rather be called a wealthy snob, even if it's wildly false especially in terms of money. And to the extent I'm a snob, it's certainly not about money, it's about me thinking that based upon my education and life experiences, my opinion is far more grounded in facts and in complex thought than the opinion of someone who has a high school degree, virtually never leaves Staten Island or central NJ, and gets all his "news" from Sean Hannity.

And I think the points that you made hit a nerve with people like Reissberg and myself because we're tired of being stereotyped and told that we're out of touch with "reality," as if the perceived status of the country is "reality" when told by a coal miner in WV, but our perspective on matters is somehow deemed to be out of touch.

And Reissberg is also right about the failure to ask about and understand the complexities behind certain beliefs. I admit that I have an extremely hard time understanding the thought processes of people like my cousins, but I've honestly tried, even if I ultimately - and solidly - reject many of the merits thereof. But I don't see many people of that background trying to do the same for me, and it's frustrating.

Reissberg said...

Thanks, Damino. I was going to respond, but you saved me some time.

Paul said...

Go look at the county voting map. Much of the country is red. The blue voters are concentrated in large numbers in big cities. That's why people say the real America is outside of the cloistered big cities.

It also has a lot to do with the media portrayal. Say what you want, but they got it wrong. Really wrong. And the same thing happened in Brexit. The media and pollsters based in the big cities were way off about what a lot of the rest of the country was thinking.

I also think when people say that liberals are out of touch with real America, they mean some of the ideals the country was founded on, for instance if you want something you have to work for it. We are moving towards a more social model with a huge safety net where people never have to work a day in their lives and can get food, housing, higher education, even a cell phone courtesy of the government, ie the taxpayers.

Which of course brings us back to the original topic, the ACLU suing a small town (and its taxpaying residents) for denying illegal immigrants access to public services.

Reminder: those aren't necessarily my opinions, just my perceptions of the opinions of those on the other side of this debate.

Damino said...


I'm keenly aware of the way that cities and rural areas vary, but the fact remains that this was an extremely close election, with Clinton winning the popular vote by likely around 2 million. So just because there is a lot more physical land covered by red areas, that doesn't mean rural Americans' views are any more "real" than those in and around cities, particularly when the Democratic candidate has won the popular vote in 6 of the last 7 presidential elections.

And I'm pretty sure that back in the 1950's, which conservatives love to deem the good old days (i.e. when women and minorities knew their places), public higher education was exceptionally inexpensive and in many cases free, and by the way the top tax brackets were quite literally double the highest brackets of 2016. So let's not use the issue of social safety nets/taxes/free college as some kind of excuse for what happened on Election Day.

I acknowledge that the opinions you're presenting aren't necessarily yours, but I've yet to hear anything from you that reflects disagreement with them.

Paul said...

You are doing a poor job impersonating someone who doesn't think conservatives are stupid, chauvinistic racists.

Also, I think we're quibbling over semantics as far as "real" Americans. Of course every citizen is a "real" American. But I think it's easier for people in cities to be cloistered whereas in the rural areas you are still exposed to other views via the media, and not just news media.

Reissberg said...

The problem is we are now living in an era of extremism and zero tolerance for nuance. We cannot even get to a point where the two sides can have a rational dialogue about the issues you referenced, Paul. Case in point, from today's Breitbart, which I've heard many conservatives argue is not an extremist publication:
"The losers of the left have worked themselves into such a bizarre hysteria over the fact that they lost the White House that they have lost all connection to reality and are now hyping their most ludicrously paranoid fantasies.
The function of this lunacy is to put off the inevitable moment when they are going to come back to Earth and reckon with the fact that they were horribly wrong and the American people have rejected them. For them, Stephen K. Bannon is the straw man of the hour."

Damino said...

LOL I don't think all conservatives are stupid, chauvinistic racists; I just think that many of them are.

And btw re: Breitbart and media generally, I vividly remember in 2008 when Obama was elected, Drudge and Breitbart were "hyping their most ludicrously paranoid fantasies" about the first African-American president and his cabinet appointments leading to the destruction of America, etc. So any perceived over-reaction to a Trump presidency is hardly without historical precedent from the other side of the aisle.

ton said...

Late to this convo, but there has actually been research indicating that there is a chemical/biological difference in the brains of people which can make them lean one way or another. Politics is a perfect example. We may not understand the 'other' side because we literally have different brain chemistry.